http://www.liveleak.com/browse?q=Rj3865 Wed, 22 May 2013 22:39:54 -0400 Liveleak http://edge.liveleak.com/80281E/u/u/ll2/logo.gif http://www.liveleak.com/browse?q=Rj3865 Wed, 22 Feb 2012 06:29:47 -0500 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=811_1329909842 rj3865 Note:- To see the original page of debate visit here. Here is an Debate with Hamza Masood , who claimed to defeat Dr. Ali Sina in a debate. Here is his performance with me:- Brother Hamza Masood, 15th Dec 2011 As per your claim here, you said "I hope you will be educated about our religion should you have any questions regarding Islam please don't hesitate to ask". For sure, I am going to raise several allegation on Qur'an and Muhammad. I'll use authentic source of Islamic scriptures as reference to my claims, both us will agree on a common topic to discuss, and we will proceed to next. My first allegation is that Qur'an is full of pseudoscience and Muhammad was unable to prove his connection with Allah.. Let see, Qur'an 18: 86 till he reached the end of the land and thestart of an ocean, where the Sun was setting, he noted that it was setting in a muckyspring and found by it a people. We said: "O Zul-Qarnain! You have the option to eitherpunish them or to show them kindness." Qur'an 18: 90 till he came to the rising of the Sun, he noted it rising on a people for whom We had not provided any shelter from it (they were so backward that they did not even know how to make houses or tents for their living). Very clearly Allah states the setting and rising place of the sun, which is confirmed by the commentaries of Qur'an,let see Tafsir Ibn Abbas:- (Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun) where the sun sets, (he found it setting in a muddy spring) a blackened, muddy and stinking spring; it is also said that this means: a hot spring, (and found a people thereabout) these people were disbelievers: (We said: O Dhu'l-Qarnayn!) We inspired him (Either punish) either kill them until they accept to believe that there is no deity except Allah (or show them kindness) or you pardon them and let them be. No explanation part is left here, all knows what Allah is talking about here, according to Allah sun was going to set in a murky water or muddy water, its an imagination of year kid, how can you believe a god to do such a blunder. For verse 18:90 Ibn Abbas says:- (Till, when he reached the rising place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no helper therefrom) these people had no shelter to protect them from the sun, they had no mountains, trees or clothes. They were naked creatures who were blind to the Truth. What left to explain? Nothing, because how can a man reach a place where sun rise, As Allah says in above verse " They were naked creatures who were blind to the Truth.". I find it in Muslims case, they are actually blind to truth.. Today even a child of II std, can confirm that from where sun rises, and where it sets. This is an absurd lie by Islamic scientist that Qur'an is a word of God, an contains MIRACLES, rather I find pseudoscience in them. Hamza Masood replied for this:- 20th Jan 2012 Dear Rahul, Firstly my apologies for not responding to your email, forgive me. May Allah swt grant me enough knowledge to be able to answer your question and that it pleases him. Can i firstly state that by no means am i a scholar or teacher, just a muslim brother. The contradiction you state regarding Surah Al-Kahf is a very common question raised by people who wish to dissprove the Qu'ran. Critics of this verse should be aware that the Qur'an is not descriptive prose, and the words of the Qur'an is of high poetical eloquence, something which the Bible is not able to claim. Since the beauty of the Qur'an is in its poetical nature, therefore it is only natural that the Qur'an uses emphatic expressions to describe something like a "sunset". Keep in mind that the Qur'an is in poetical prose and is meant to be a challenge to the pagan Arabs in Mecca who prided themselves as writers of good poetry. Those neophytes who like to use this verse as a stick to beat Islam with should try to study the Arabian Literature and history of that period before coming up with incorrect conclusion. Several translations of the Sura by Yusuf Ali, M Pickthall, Shakir can be analaysed below regarding the points you raise. "Until, when he reached the setting of the sun...": The translation of this part of the verse does not say that Zul-Qarnain reached the place where the sun sets LITERALLY, rather it means here that Zul-Qarnain was facing the direction in which the sun is setting. The "setting of the sun," is an Arabic idiom meaning 'the western-most point' of his expedition. However, in general, idioms should not be literally translated. "...he found it set in a spring of murky water": The Qur'an is obviously describing what Dhul-Qarnain saw. What Dhul-Qarnain saw was the image of the sun setting in a dark body of water. Since the Qur'an is clearly describing this from Dhul-Qarnain's direct point of view (the Qur'an is quite explicit here in doing that), there is in fact no problem with the description of what Dhul-Qarnain saw. Of course the Critic is right when he says that "the sun does not set in a spring of murky water", but try standing at a beach during the time when the sun is about to set and the Critic would be able to see the sun "entering" the sea far in the horizon. This therefore gives us the conclusion that Dhul-Qarnain was somewhere west and by a large body of water, possibly the sea. Therefore, it is clear the verse says that Dhul-Qarnain went west and saw the sun setting over the horizon so that it looked to him as though it was setting into the sea, which is murky-looking. Probably the critic have never stood by on the beach and observe the sun set. In his famous commentary known as Al-Game' Le Ahkam-el-Qur'an, Imam Al-Qurtubi (died 671 AH/1273 CE) wrote about this verse:It is not meant by reaching the rising or setting of the sun that he reached its body and touched it because it runs in the sky around the earth without touching it and it is too great to enter any spring on earth. It is so much larger than earth. But it is meant that he reached the end of populated land east and west, so he found it - according to his vision - setting in a spring of a murky water like we watch it in smooth land as if it enters inside the land. That is why He said, "he found it rising on a people for whom we had provided no covering protection against the sun." (Holy Qur'an 18:90) and did not mean that it touches or adheres to them; but they are the first to rise on. Probably this spring is a part of the sea and the sun sets behind, with or at it, so the proposition takes the place of an adjective and God knows best. Imam Ibn Kathir (701-774 AH/1302-1373 CE) wrote in his commentary about this verse, that: "Until, when he reached the setting of the sun" means he followed a certain way till he reached the furthest land he could go from the west. As for reaching the setting of the sun in the sky, it is impossible. What narrators and story tellers say that he walked for a period of time in earth while the sun was setting behind him is unreal, and most of it is from myths of People of the Book and inventions of their liars. "he found it set in a spring of murky water" means he saw the sun according to his vision setting in the ocean and this is the same with everyone ending to the shore seeing as if the sun sets inside it (i.e. the ocean). I have looked upon greater academic sources to be able to provide some clarification to the scientific confusion. Also as a simple picture the horizon i have posted is a picture we are all familiar with... notice how the at the far horizon it looks dark also black... like muddy waters. Surely you can realise this is not literal but an appearance.... May Allah forgive me if i have answered wrong and God knows best. Don't hesitate to get in touch if i can be of any help, Take care Rahul, and my one advice is try not to be ignorant and open your mind to the truth, don't believe the few that try to taint or wrong the teachings of the Qu'ran, you seem like an intelligent man, just slightly confused i feel maybe from the bad influences you may have come friendly with. Hamza Masood For Which I replied:- 21st Jan 2012 Brother Hamza, I am really glad to get a reply from you, hope we have a better discussion ahead. I agree with some of your explanation, which says :- Of course the Critic is right when he says that "the sun does not set in a spring of murky water", but try standing at a beach during the time when the sun is about to set and the Critic would be able to see the sun "entering" the sea far in the horizon. This therefore gives us the conclusion that Dhul-Qarnain was somewhere west and by a large body of water, possibly the sea. Really even I don't find any problem which this part, if a man says that he saw sun setting in a sea, while he was standing in a beach. People will not consider him fool, because it is possible to see, sun setting in Horizon.. But it can't appear that sun is setting in murky water. Let's use the verse transliteration for the evidence. It says:- Transliteration Hatta itha balaghamaghriba ashshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin hami-atinwawajada AAindaha qawman qulna ya thaalqarnayni imma an tuAAaththiba wa-imma antattakhitha feehim husna. Now, analyse few words in this transliteration. The first one is the word 'wajadaha', which according to Muslim scholars means "appeared to" or "he found it". To know the real meaning of this word, please go through this page here. So according to lane's lexicon dictionary, WAJADAHA means:- He found it; lighted on it; attained it; obtained it by searching or seeking; discovered it; perceived it; saw it; experienced it, or became sensible of it; The same word WAJADAHA is used in several other verses of Qur'an, for ex see 7:28, here is the transliteration with English translation.:- Transliteration Wa-itha faAAaloo fahishatan qaloowajadna AAalayha abaana wallahuamarana biha qul inna Allaha laya/muru bilfahsha-i ataqooloona AAalaAllahi ma la taAAlamoon Sahih InternationalAnd when they commit an immorality, they say, "We found our fathers doing it, and Allah has ordered us to do it." Say, "Indeed, Allah does not order immorality. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?" Yusuf AliWhen they do aught that is shameful, they say: "We found our fathers doing so"; and "Allah commanded us thus": Say: "Nay, Allah never commands what is shameful: do ye say of Allah what ye know not?" Here the word is used as :- We found. Further the Lane's Lexicon gives the clear meaning of this word, see here. he knew . (A, TA, &c.) Ex. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=811_1329909842 rj3865 Debate with Hamza Masood Islam,Muhammad,Quran,The False Prophet,Ali Sina, Rahul Raj, Rj3865