Safe Mode: On
Debate with Hamza Masood

[size=5" color="#ff0000]Note:- To see the original page of debate visit here.[/size]




Here is an Debate with Hamza Masood, who claimed to defeat Dr. Ali Sina in a debate. Here is his performance with me:-

Brother Hamza Masood, 15th Dec 2011

As per your claim here, you said “I hope you will be educated about our religion should you have any questions regarding Islam please don’t hesitate to ask”. For sure, I am going to raise several allegation on Qur’an and Muhammad. I’ll use authentic source of Islamic scriptures as reference to my claims, both us will agree on a common topic to discuss, and we will proceed to next. My first allegation is that Qur’an is full of pseudoscience and Muhammad was unable to prove his connection with Allah..

Let see, Qur’an 18: 86 till he reached the end of the land and thestart of an ocean,
where the Sun was setting, he noted that it was setting in a muckyspring and found
by it a people. We said: “O Zul-Qarnain! You have the option to eitherpunish them or
to show them kindness.”

Qur’an 18: 90 till he came to the rising of the Sun, he noted it rising on a
people for whom We had not provided any shelter from it (they were so backward
that they did not even know how to make houses or tents for their living).



Very clearly Allah states the setting and rising place of the sun, which is confirmed by the commentaries of Qur’an,let see Tafsir Ibn
Abbas:-

[18:86]
(Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun) where the sun sets, (he found it setting in a muddy spring) a blackened, muddy and stinking spring; it is also said that this means: a hot spring, (and found a people thereabout) these people were disbelievers: (We said: O Dhu’l-Qarnayn!) We inspired him (Either punish) either kill them until they accept to believe that there is no deity except Allah (or show them kindness) or you pardon them and let them be.

No explanation part is left here, all knows what Allah is talking about here, according to Allah sun was going to set in a murky water
or muddy water, its an imagination of year kid, how can you believe a god to do such a blunder.

For verse 18:90 Ibn Abbas says:-

[18:90]
(Till, when he reached the rising place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no helper therefrom) these
people had no shelter to protect them from the sun, they had no mountains, trees or clothes. They were naked creatures who were blind to the Truth.

What left to explain? Nothing, because how can a man reach a place where sun rise, As Allah says in above verse ” They were naked
creatures who were blind to the Truth.”. I find it in Muslims case, they are actually blind to truth.. Today even a child of II std, can
confirm that from where sun rises, and where it sets. This is an absurd lie by Islamic scientist that Qur’an is a word of God, an
contains MIRACLES, rather I find pseudoscience in them.

Hamza Masood replied for this:- 20th Jan 2012

Dear Rahul,

Firstly my apologies for not responding to your email, forgive me.

May Allah swt grant me enough knowledge to be able to answer your question and that it pleases him.

Can i firstly state that by no means am i a scholar or teacher, just a muslim brother. The contradiction you state regarding Surah Al-Kahf is a very common question raised by people who wish to dissprove the Qu’ran.

Critics of this verse should be aware that the Qur’an is not descriptive prose, and the words of the Qur’an is of high poetical eloquence, something which the Bible is not able to claim. Since the beauty of the Qur’an is in its poetical nature, therefore it is only natural that the Qur’an uses emphatic expressions to describe something like a “sunset”. Keep in mind that the Qur’an is in poetical prose and is meant to be a challenge to the pagan Arabs in Mecca who prided themselves as writers of good poetry. Those neophytes who like to use this verse as a stick to beat Islam with should try to study the Arabian Literature and history of that period before coming up with incorrect conclusion.

Several translations of the Sura by Yusuf Ali, M Pickthall, Shakir can be analaysed below regarding the points you raise.

“Until, when he reached the setting of the sun…”: The translation of this part of the verse does not say that Zul-Qarnain reached the place where the sun sets LITERALLY, rather it means here that Zul-Qarnain was facing the direction in which the sun is setting. The “setting of the sun,” is an Arabic idiom meaning ‘the western-most point’ of his expedition. However, in general, idioms should not be literally translated.
“…he found it set in a spring of murky water”: The Qur’an is obviously describing what Dhul-Qarnain saw. What Dhul-Qarnain saw was the image of the sun setting in a dark body of water. Since the Qur’an is clearly describing this from Dhul-Qarnain’s direct point of view (the Qur’an is quite explicit here in doing that), there is in fact no problem with the description of what Dhul-Qarnain saw. Of course the Critic is right when he says that “the sun does not set in a spring of murky water”, but try standing at a beach during the time when the sun is about to set and the Critic would be able to see the sun “entering” the sea far in the horizon. This therefore gives us the conclusion that Dhul-Qarnain was somewhere west and by a large body of water, possibly the sea.
Therefore, it is clear the verse says that Dhul-Qarnain went west and saw the sun setting over the horizon so that it looked to him as though it was setting into the sea, which is murky-looking. Probably the critic have never stood by on the beach and observe the sun set.

In his famous commentary known as Al-Game’ Le Ahkam-el-Qur’an, Imam Al-Qurtubi (died 671 AH/1273 CE) wrote about this verse:It is not meant by reaching the rising or setting of the sun that he reached its body and touched it because it runs in the sky around the earth without touching it and it is too great to enter any spring on earth. It is so much larger than earth. But it is meant that he reached the end of populated land east and west, so he found it – according to his vision – setting in a spring of a murky water like we watch it in smooth land as if it enters inside the land. That is why He said, “he found it rising on a people for whom we had provided no covering protection against the sun.” (Holy Qur’an 18:90) and did not mean that it touches or adheres to them; but they are the first to rise on. Probably this spring is a part of the sea and the sun sets behind, with or at it, so the proposition takes the place of an adjective and God knows best.

Imam Ibn Kathir (701-774 AH/1302-1373 CE) wrote in his commentary about this verse, that:

“Until, when he reached the setting of the sun” means he followed a certain way till he reached the furthest land he could go from the west. As for reaching the setting of the sun in the sky, it is impossible. What narrators and story tellers say that he walked for a period of time in earth while the sun was setting behind him is unreal, and most of it is from myths of People of the Book and inventions of their liars. “he found it set in a spring of murky water” means he saw the sun according to his vision setting in the ocean and this is the same with everyone ending to the shore seeing as if the sun sets inside it (i.e. the ocean).

I have looked upon greater academic sources to be able to provide some clarification to the scientific confusion. Also as a simple picture the horizon i have posted is a picture we are all familiar with… notice how the at the far horizon it looks dark also black… like muddy waters. Surely you can realise this is not literal but an appearance….

May Allah forgive me if i have answered wrong and God knows best. Don’t hesitate to get in touch if i can be of any help,

Take care Rahul, and my one advice is try not to be ignorant and open your mind to the truth, don’t believe the few that try to taint or wrong the teachings of the Qu’ran, you seem like an intelligent man, just slightly confused i feel maybe from the bad influences you may have come friendly with.

Hamza Masood

For Which I replied:- 21st Jan 2012

Brother Hamza,
I am really glad to get a reply from you, hope we have a better discussion ahead.


I agree with some of your explanation, which says :-
Of course the Critic is right when he says that “the sun does not set in a spring of murky water”, but try standing at a beach during the time when the sun is about to set and the Critic would be able to see the sun “entering” the sea far in the horizon. This therefore gives us the conclusion that Dhul-Qarnain was somewhere west and by a large body of water, possibly the sea.

Really even I don’t find any problem which this part, if a man says that he saw sun setting in a sea, while he was standing in a beach. People will not consider him fool, because it is possible to see, sun setting in Horizon.. But it can’t appear that sun is setting in murky water. Let’s use the verse transliteration for the evidence.

It says:-

Transliteration
Hatta itha balaghamaghriba ashshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin hami-atinwawajada AAindaha qawman qulna ya thaalqarnayni imma an tuAAaththiba wa-imma antattakhitha feehim husna.


Now, analyse few words in this transliteration. The first one is the word ’wajadaha’, which according to Muslim scholars means “appeared to” or “he found it”.

To know the real meaning of this word, please go through this page here. So according to lane’s lexicon dictionary, WAJADAHA means:- He found it; lighted on it; attained it; obtained it by searching or seeking; discovered it; perceived it; saw it; experienced it, or became sensible of it;


The same word WAJADAHA is used in several other verses of Qur’an, for ex see 7:28, here is the transliteration with English translation.:-



Transliteration

Wa-itha faAAaloo fahishatan qaloowajadna AAalayha abaana wallahuamarana biha qul inna Allaha laya/muru bilfahsha-i ataqooloona AAalaAllahi ma la taAAlamoon

Sahih InternationalAnd when they commit an immorality, they say, “We found our fathers doing it, and Allah has ordered us to do it.” Say, “Indeed, Allah does not order immorality. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?”



Yusuf AliWhen they do aught that is shameful, they say: “We found our fathers doing so”; and “Allah commanded us thus”: Say: “Nay, Allah never commands what is shameful: do ye say of Allah what ye know not?”

Here the word is used as :- We found. Further the Lane’s Lexicon gives the clear meaning of this word, see here.
[He found, in the sense of] he knew [by experience]. (A, TA, &c.) [In this sense, it is a verb of the kind called أفْعَالُ القُلُوبِ ; having two objective complements; the first of which is called its noun, and the second its predicate.] Ex. وَجَدْتُ زَيْدًا ذَا الحِفَاظِ I [found, or] knew Zeyd to possess the quality of defending those things which should be sacred, or inviolable.Now, it is not hard to decide what does really this word mean, Dhul-Qurnayen actually came to the real place where the sun set. Now let us also see the word , which according to you and many more Islamic scholars means :- Sea, or Ocean. Because sun cannot appear to set in pond, or lake or spring, because we need a larger body of water to extend it till horizon, which cannot be anything except Sea or Ocean, not even rivers..

So, again I refer you to the transliteration, which uses word AAaynin for Sea or Ocean. Now, there are plenty of verses from Qur’an itself to refer to the actual meaning of this word. Please see, 2:60, which reads:-


Transliteration
Wa-ithi istasqa moosaliqawmihi faqulna idrib biAAasaka alhajarafanfajarat minhu ithnata AAashrataAAaynan qadAAalima kullu onasin mashrabahum kuloo washraboomin rizqi Allahi wala taAAthaw fee al-ardimufsideen

Sahih International
And [recall] when Moses prayed for water for his people, so We said, “Strike with your staff the stone.” And there gushed forth from it twelve springs, and every people knew its watering place. “Eat and drink from the provision of Allah , and do not commit abuse on the earth, spreading corruption.”

Also see 15:45

Transliteration
Inna almuttaqeena fee jannatinwaAAuyoon

Sahih InternationalIndeed, the righteous will be within gardens and springs.

So in the same way, no where Qur’an says Aaaynin refers to Sea or Ocean. It simply means spring, or pond, so there is no question of horizon and appeared place of setting.. These verse mean, that in reality Dhul-Qurnayen saw the sun setting in murky water.. Even one more point which should be noted by you, that almost all the Islamic Translators, translated this word as ‘Murky water’ or ‘Muddy water’.

We don’t find mud in sea or ocean, it is obviously available in springs and dirty ponds.. Lastly, I will like to quote your comment which says:-

In his famous commentary known as Al-Game’ Le Ahkam-el-Qur’an, Imam Al-Qurtubi (died 671 AH/1273 CE) wrote about this verse:

It is not meant by reaching the rising or setting of the sun that he reached its body and touched it because it runs in the sky around the earth without touching it and it is too great to enter any spring on earth. It is so much larger than earth. But it is meant that he reached the end of populated land east and west, so he found it – according to his vision – setting in a spring of a murky water like we watch it in smooth land as if it enters inside the land. That is why He said, “he found it rising on a people for whom we had provided no covering protection against the sun.” (Holy Qur’an 18:90) and did not mean that it touches or adheres to them; but they are the first to rise on. Probably this spring is a part of the sea and the sun sets behind, with or at it, so the proposition takes the place of an adjective and God knows best.


Brother Hamza, I used the earliest Tafsir by the companion of the prophet, as the Tafsir itself says “However, Muslim scholarship considers Ibn ‘Abbas as the real father of the science of Tafsir.” ‘Abdullah Ibn ‘Abbas (d. 68/687), which makes it the earliest Tafsir..
Regards..
Hamza Masood replied:- 21st Jan 2012

Hello Rahul,

You seem to contradict yourself in your explanantion and instead of providing a valid argument or proof….. i will requote one of the translations:-

it is meant that he reached the end of populated land east and west, so he found it – according to his vision – setting in a spring of a murky water



Firstly understand that it is physically IMPOSSIBLE to reach the point at which the sun is setting… come on my friend think logic….. no man can stand at this point…. the Qu-ran is a book of logic, look throughout it with its repspect to scientific facts /issues… how can it be that it is always this surah that non believers pick on to dissprove…. ??What you are doing and are obviously quite good at doing is take odd words and picking out the possible meanings of that word that suit your argument on the context it is used in and then trying to dissprove the qu’ran.

My friend in ANY scriptures/prose/text/book/piece of written knowledge do you not know you can’t single out a word and expect it to sum up what the whole text means…??? You say yourself wajadaha also means perceives or appears… these are your own words and means NOTliterally. I guess you knowledge of grammar of the english language is very limited…..and like me you are not capable of speaking quranic arabic….. this makes very difficult as you can imagine but we still try to get you to come to an understanding of why your argument on this surah is flawed.

The term ‘he found’ can mean different things… surely you understand this…. he found DOES NOT always mean literally he physically found something …..

Please open you eyes and mind …. if the qu’ran is flawed as you say i challenge you to bring other sources where it is contradictory or claimed by people like yoursleves that it not the truth.

Hamza



My reply:- Date 23rd Jan 2012

Brother Hamza,



Its not me who contradicts his statement, but the commentary which you quoted in your last reply was posted by you only, see it here :-
In his famous commentary known as Al-Game’ Le Ahkam-el-Qur’an, Imam Al-Qurtubi (died 671 AH/1273 CE) wrote about this verse:

It is not meant by reaching the rising or setting of the sun that he reached its body and touched it because it runs in the sky around the earth without touching it and it is too great to enter any spring on earth. It is so much larger than earth. But it is meant that he reached the end of populated land east and west, so he found it – according to his vision – setting in a spring of a murky water like we watch it in smooth land as if it enters inside the land. That is why He said, “he found it rising on a people for whom we had provided no covering protection against the sun.” (Holy Qur’an 18:90) and did not mean that it touches or adheres to them; but they are the first to rise on. Probably this spring is a part of the sea and the sun sets behind, with or at it, so the proposition takes the place of an adjective and God knows best.


This commentary was posted by you only in your first message, and I just used it to prove my point, and to discard this commentary I have already replied you, please read it again. I said earlier that :-Brother Hamza, I used the earliest Tafsir by the companion of the prophet, as the Tafsir itself says “However, Muslim scholarship considers Ibn ‘Abbas as the real father of the science of Tafsir.” ‘Abdullah Ibn ‘Abbas (d. 68/687), which makes it the earliest Tafsir..



Now, I hope your misconception must have been cleared. Further you said that I am not providing you valid point, but I think you haven’t read my reply seriously, please go through it again. You claimed :-
Firstly understand that it is physically IMPOSSIBLE to reach the point at which the sun is setting… come on my friend think logic….. no man can stand at this point…. the Qu-ran is a book of logic, look throughout it with its repspect to scientific facts /issues… how can it be that it is always this surah that non believers pick on to dissprove…. ??



This is what I am saying,that it is physically impossible to reach the setting place of sun, until unless a man thinks that this earth is flat and considers sun a small football. As in case of Qur’an, Muhammad narrated the story to his companions, which Allah mentioned him. This mean Allah approved the story, by the same logic that Qur’an is the word of God, and God’s knowledge can not have error. This mean that Allah approved the story and mentioned it in Qur’an, which Muhammad narrated in CH18 Verse 86.

Rest of your comment is not worthy of a reply, because it makes no sense, and is a very poor argument, but still to clarify this matter I’ll explain it to you. As you said:-
What you are doing and are obviously quite good at doing is take odd words and picking out the possible meanings of that word that suit your argument on the context it is used in and then trying to dissprove the qu’ran.



What made you think this, I though that being a Muslim, you must be knowing that Koranic Arabic is not what Arab’s of today usually speak, so to make it easily understandable, Islamic scholars gave meanings to each and every word in Qur’an.. Like we find, Encyclopedia of Qur’an, Alphabetical Index of Qur’an, or Qur’an Dictionary etc which are approved by Al-Azhar university of Cairo, Egypt.. The Page which contains those meanings which suit my argument is from an Islamic Website, you can visit it here. It is not at all my definition, the dictionary contains all those Lexicon words, which were used at the time of Muhammad, with its meaning. It is not my own invention. The words I provided you were, WAJADAHA, which can possibly mean this:-
[He found, in the sense of] he knew [by experience]. (A, TA, &c.) [In this sense, it is a verb of the kind called أفْعَالُ القُلُوبِ ; having two objective complements; the first of which is called its noun, and the second its predicate.] Ex. وَجَدْتُ زَيْدًا ذَا الحِفَاظِ I [found, or] knew Zeyd to possess the quality of defending those things which should be sacred, or inviolable.


And, AAayanin, which according to Qur’an itself means Spring. As we can see its example in 2:60, 15:45 etc. So it won’t be just to accuse me of anything, which I am not doing.

Now, moving ahead let’s see what else you have said:-


My friend in ANY scriptures/prose/text/book/piece of written knowledge do you not know you can’t single out a word and expect it to sum up what the whole text means…??? You say yourself wajadaha also means perceives or appears… these are your own words and means NOTliterally. I guess you knowledge of grammar of the english language is very limited…..and like me you are not capable of speaking quranic arabic….. this makes very difficult as you can imagine but we still try to get you to come to an understanding of why your argument on this surah is flawed.
The term ‘he found’ can mean different things… surely you understand this…. he found DOES NOT always mean literally he physically found something …..


Brother, very first thing you should be aware of, that Qur’an itself rejects your definition of word WAJADAHA, and on whose authority you are making such meaning yourself. You only said, that you are not an scholar, it is baseless claim to say that WAJADAHA means ‘perceive’. According to other verses from Qur’an, WAJADAHA means, that Dhul-Qurnayen found the place literally. As I have given examples of those verses in my 2nd Reply . Let me give you another example, which will prove that the word WAJADAHA does not means ‘perceive’ any how.

See Ch6 Verse78 which says:-
And when he saw the sun rising, he said, “This is my lord; this is greater.” But when it set, he said, “O my people, indeed I am free from what you associate with Allah .



Also read the transliteration here:-
Falamma raa ashshamsabazighatan qala hatha rabbee hathaakbaru falamma afalat qala ya qawmi inneebaree-on mimma tushrikoon



Now, as you said WAJADAHA means perceive, then please find the word WAJADAHA in above transliteration. I don’t think so you will get it. But see the verse 18:77 here with its Transliteration, which says:-
So they set out, until when they came to the people of a town, they asked its people for food, but they refused to offer them hospitality. And they found therein a wall about to collapse, so al-Khidh r restored it. [Moses] said, “If you wished, you could have taken for it a payment.”



Transliteration:-
Fantalaqa hattaitha ataya ahla qaryatin istatAAamaahlaha faabaw an yudayyifoohuma fawajadafeeha jidaran yureedu an yanqadda faaqamahuqala law shi/ta lattakhathta AAalayhi ajra



Now notice the word above in BOLD, it means that the people mentioned in above verse 18:77, literally found the wall which was about to collapse, and just after 10 verse, Allah changed the meaning of the word. Is it so? Also see the meaning of the word ‘perceive’ below, and put its meaning in the verse 18:86. It does not make any sense brother.

become aware or conscious of (something); come to realize or understand:his mouth fell open as he perceived the truth[with clause]:he was quick to perceive that there was little future in such arguments

Now, I think I have answered each and every question of your’s and have given a strong refutation to your understanding using the meanings from Qur’an itself. It is a clear scientific error in Qur’an, making Qur’an a man made book, and Muhammad a False prophet. When you remove this blind faith from your eyes and brain, you will find thousand errors more in it..

Regards..
Rahul Raj

After this part of my reply on Jan 23rd 2012, I haven’t got any reply from his side, hope I hear from him soon.


Added: Feb-22-2012 Occurred On: Dec-22-2011
By: rj3865
In:
Religion
Tags: Islam, Muhammad, Quran, The False Prophet, Ali Sina, Rahul Raj, Rj3865
Location: India (load item map)
Views: 6096 | Comments: 0 | Votes: 0 | Favorites: 0 | Shared: 0 | Updates: 0 | Times used in channels: 1
You need to be registered in order to add comments! Register HERE