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DEBATE: With Donald Morgan (USD 50,000. Update!)

Someone told me that the best way to reach many people is to join Facebook. I did and I sent an invitation to everyone in my address book. (I have not yet figure out how one can read many people through FB) Mr. Donald Morgan, aka Saadiq Mohammad, who apparently was one of the people in my address book, responded and joined me there. He challenged me to a debate and said he can prove me wrong. I have stopped debating with unknown people. That is because they repeat the same things and every time I prove them wrong, other Muslims say, but you did not debate with real scholars. So there is no gain for me debating ordinary Muslims. If they are not scholars it is a waste of my time. If they want to learn the truth all they have to do is read many articles written on faithfeedom.org.

I told Donald that he should first read my book. I know that once Muslims read my book they will either leave Islam or will leave me in peace. Donald claimed to have read the book and was adamant that he can prove me wrong. I knew he was not telling the truth. But I was bound by my words. I told him not to expect leniency from me. Because I know he has not read the book and despite that he wants to waste my time, I am going to be ruthless with him. He was nonchalant and confident that he can prove me wrong.

The following is what he wrote and my response to him. It is long. So I am going to publish this debate in parts.

Donald Morgan

Before I begin with this debate, I would like to thank Ali Sina for giving me the opportunity to engage him in a formal debate. I do understand that time is limited, as we both have many things to do, so it thrills me to have this debate with someone of Ali Sina’s stature. Ali Sina and myself may be coming from two different extremes, but it is a true testament to mankind’s ability to come together and question one another without resorting to threats of violence or character insults. I hope that this level of professionalism and respect is maintained throughout our debate, and more importantly, that something can be learned by those who read it in the future.

Now that I have gotten that out of the way, I would like to carry on with the debate. Ali Sina posts a challenge on his website at http://www.faithfreedom.org which states that if anyone can disprove any of the claims he (Ali Sina) levies against Muhammad, he would shut down his website, declare Islam as being the truth and pay out the sum of $50,000 USD to whomever can disprove his accusations. These accusations can be found in his book, titled ‘Understanding Muhammad, A Physcobiography’. In this book Ali Sina has accused Muhammad of various crimes, including pedophilia and plundering. With so many different topics to choose from, I initially had a hard time picking which one I wanted to debate with Ali Sina about. My difficulty did not stem from my ability or confidence in debating Ali Sina, it came from a overwhelming desire to disprove all of his accusations. This, however is an undertaking that could take months to achieve and since Ali Sina invites all to disprove just one fact, shows us that Ali Sina is fully aware of this fact. When I first spoke to Ali Sina about having this debate, I had the intention of debating him over his accusation of pedophilia. This consequently led me to a debate with one of FFI’s most outspoken writers, Amaar Khan. I engaged this individual in a heated debate on pedophilia that subsequently lead to Amaar Khan trying to block the second part of our debate from being published because it exposed his limited scope on the subject, as well as his contradictory approach to evidence and lack of knowledge. Others who have read the unpublished part of the debate had to concede that Amaar Khan made a poor argument, thus losing the debate. I sent my response to his counter rebuttal, and to this day, I have not heard from him.

So, after this exchange I didn’t want to debate Ali Sina about pedophilia because all I would be doing is repeating facts that Amaar Khan was unable to address. With that being said, I decided that I would like to debate with Ali Sina about his accusations of Muhammad being a narcissist. In Ali Sina’s book he has a chapter devoted to the subject (from page 60 to 73) and this is where I draw my argument against Ali Sina.



Ali Sina

You are making an unfounded accusation. I can’t understand what arguments one can present to make us believe that a 53 year old man having sex with an 8 year old girl does not constitute pedophilia. If Amar Khan decided to ignore your second rebuttal, it is because its absurdity is self evident. No matter how many intellectual summersaults you make, an adult having sex with an 8 year old child is a pedophile.



Donald Morgan

NARCISSISM VERSUS NPD

On Ali Sina’s website he offers a challenge. This challenge can be found at http://www.faithfreedom.org/the-challenge/. If you read this challenge, Ali Sina levels 12 charges against Muhammad. The very first charge on his list is ‘a narcissist’. This is a very misleading charge to make and contradicts what is written in his (Ali Sina) book. If we look at page 60, of his book he gives reference to the DSM 1994, which is basically the criteria used to diagnose Narcissistic Personality Disorder or NPD for short. Ali Sina wants the public to believe that narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder are one in the same, that these two terms are synonymous with one another. This cannot be further from the truth, as medical professionals see a distinct difference between these two terms. According to people who are qualified in the field of mental disorders, everyone suffers from narcissism. We all have some level of what they refer to as ‘healthy’ narcissism. They also conclude that our very instinct at survival is a form of narcissism. Example, we take pride in our work in the hopes that it gives us a promotion, or at birth, we command the total attention from our parents. Narcissism is an intrinsic part of what drives us to be better at what we do. If you wear a sports jersey and support a particular sports team you have a ‘healthy’ level of narcissism (this is how detailed the subject of narcissism is).

Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a personality disorder that is ‘a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and a lack of empathy’ (according to Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM for short) of Mental Disorders, the diagnostic classification system used in the United States. http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/narcissisticpd.htm). They go further and state that narcissistic personality disorder is closely linked to self-centeredness.




Ali Sina

You obviously misunderstood me. (Actually you did not read the book.) I do not believe that narcissism and NPD are the same. I have explained this on various occasions. The following is what I wrote in an article dated 2008/11/26 describing the buffoon president usurp Mr. Zero a.k.a. Obama/Soetoro.

It is true that we are all narcissists and actually a healthy dose of narcissism is essential for our well being. It makes us feel good about ourselves, we expect good things to happen to us, believe in our own potential, have a positive outlook at life, be optimistic and happy. However, narcissism as a disorder is an entirely different thing. Let me explain this with a couple of examples:

Blood pressure is a good thing. It is vital. Without it we would die. However, when blood pressure becomes too high, it develops into hypertension and becomes a killer. Take another example: We all have fat in our body. We cannot live without it. But obesity is a killer.

Likewise, a healthy dose of narcissism is necessary. Pathological narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is destructve. For the scope of this article, when I talk about narcissism I am referring to pathological narcissism.

In nowhere in my book I implied that normal narcissism is the same as NPD. We put salt in our food to make it tasty. So salty is good. But we generally say a food is salty when the amount of salt is too much. When we call someone is a narcissist any rational person understands we mean disproportionately.

This is not a good start. It shows that you did not read my book or your level of comprehension is not adequate. Your argument is a straw man fallacy.

Donald Morgan

The implications here are important because they illustrate a very misleading conclusion, with regards to Ali Sina. It is IMPOSSIBLE to try and prove that a person is not a narcissist because EVERYONE, to some degree, is a narcissist. So When Ali Sina asks us to prove that Muhammad was not a narcissist, he is asking us to prove that Muhammad is without that which makes us and him (Muhammad) human.



Ali Sina

In my book, and on several other places, I have shown that Muhammad had many traits that are symptoms of NPD. It is clear that I am talking about the disorder and not the healthy dose of narcissism.




Donald Morgan

To further put the stamp on this section I would like to quote Jesus from the bible. Ali Sina quotes Jesus in his chapter about narcissism on page 62 of his book to try and prove that Jesus was not a narcissist. He does so to give the impression that Jesus is better than Muhammad. I also believe this was added because Ali Sina knows that a majority of people who read his material, support and fund him are Christians who have negative opinions about Islam. I believe in Jesus and Muhammad so it would be ‘un-Islamic’ for me to insult any of these great prophets. Ali Sina says the following in his book:

‘Compare that to the words of Jesus, who when someone called him “good master,” objected and said, “Why do you call me good? No one is good—except God alone’

I would like to take this opportunity to remind Ali Sina and the ignorant Christians who support him about other sayings of Jesus in the bible that would paint him as being a narcissist or an NPD sufferer.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John14:6)

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. (John 10:11)

I and the Father are one. (John 10:30) (Jesus saying he is God)

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16) (Jesus is the only begotten son of God according to this passage)

Jesus said to her, “First, let the children (house of Isreal) eat all they want. It’s not right to take the children’s food and throw it to the dogs (Gentiles i.e those who are not Jewish). (Mark 7:27). (Jesus refers to all those who are not from the house of Israel (the gentiles) as being ‘dogs’)

So I have an alternate challenge for Ali Sina in light of these few passages. Will you now acknowledge that Jesus was a narcissist? Will you now say he suffered from narcissistic personality disorder (NPD)? I don’t think that you would because those Christians are lining your pockets with money, and I wonder how much of that revenue will be lost if you dare call Jesus a narcissist or an NPD sufferer. It’s funny to see Ali Sina compromise his beliefs for the sake of the almighty dollar! I truly feel sorry for you.



Ali Sina

Apart from the fact that you are making a false accusation about Christians lining my pockets with money, the above quotes do not portray Jesus as a narcissist. Jesus is describing his function as being the “way.”

(We do not get enough donations to even pay for our server, and it is mostly the apostates that pay the little donations that we receive. All this year we received was $400 dollars in donations, One $200, one $100 and two $50 dollars. Our server’s cost alone is $200 dollars per month. Those of us, who run this site, also pay for it. But obviously being a Muslim one cannot expect anything but distorted thinking from you. It is funny that you don’t see anything wrong in Muhammad’s lootings, but have problem with the fact that we receive donations from those who think our service is worth it, even though those donations cover less than half of our costs.)

The words and actions of Muhammad were quite different. Here are some of the things Muhammad said about himself.

· The very first thing that Allâh Almighty ever created was my soul.

· First of all things, the Lord created my mind.

· I am from Allâh, and the believers are from me.
· Just as Allâh created me noble, he also gave me noble character.

· Were it not for you, [O Muhammad] I would not have created the universe.
As we can see, while Jesus is talking about his credentials and his mission, Muhammad is talking about himself and his own grandiosity. Also, while Jesus acted like a torch of guidance and set a good example, Muhammad acted like a thug and lived like a criminal. Jesus’ words and actions coincide. Those of Muhammad don’t. If Mother Teresa claimed to be a good person you may accuse her of immodesty, but it won’t be a preposterous claim. However, it would be preposterous for Hitler to make such a claim. Muhammad was an evil man. That is what makes his claims of greatness so laughable.



Donald Morgan

QUESTIONABLE RESOURCES OF INFORMATION

In Ali Sina’s book he looks to secondary sources for information on narcissism (I have no problem with secondary, qualified sources). As one reads the chapter devoted to narcissism in his book, one should pay close attention to the sources Ali Sina uses, when trying to define narcissism and its traits. Time after time one sees a familiar name; one Dr. Sam Vaknin, Ph.D. Ali Sina references this person’s writings quite a bit in this chapter. Approximately 95-97 percent of the secondary, ‘professional’, explanations are attributed to Dr. Sam Vaknin. So, it can be easily said that Ali Sina’s argument rests solely, if not all together, on the definitions and writings of this particular person (Dr. Sam Vaknin). Ali Sina gives praise to this individual in his book. He says:

‘Dr. Sam Vaknin is the author of Malignant Self-Love. He is regarded as an authority on the subject. He understands and describes the mind of a narcissist like few do.’ (page 63 of his book)

I went online to do some research on this person. I wanted to know who he was, if he even existed, and if he is truly qualified to speak on the subject of narcissism. What I found was shocking, to say the least. Dr. Sam Vaknin does indeed exist and he even has his own website. On this website you can read all about this man, who he is, and what he has written. The website is http://samvak.tripod.com/. Like I said earlier, I found something shocking about Dr. Sam Vaknin. On his website he has a ‘disclaimer’ which can be viewed at http://samvak.tripod.com/indexqa.html#Warning%20and%20Disclaimer. In this disclaimer he states the following, and I quote:

‘The contents of this website are not meant to substitute for professional help and counseling. The readers are discouraged from using it for diagnostic or therapeutic ends. The diagnosis and treatment of the Narcissistic Personality Disorder can only be done by professional specifically trained and qualified to do so.

The author is NOT A MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL.’

Anyone who visits this site will see that I have not tampered with this quotation in any way. I want you, the reader to note the part of the ‘disclaimer’ that is put in capitalized, bold lettering (‘The author is NOT A MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONAL.’). Why would Dr. Sam Vaknin put so much emphasis on this part of his ‘disclaimer’? The answer should be simple to come by. If one takes into account what he has stated in whole, one would see that Dr. Sam Vaknin is NOT truly qualified to speak about matters pertaining to mental disorders, and to an extent, Narcissism. If he were truly a qualified person to speak of such matters, he would not have injected such a disclaimer on his website. Dr. Sam Vaknin obviously wants his readers to know this, as he posts links to this ‘disclaimer’ on every webpage, within his website.

If you look deeper into Dr. Sam Vaknin’s website you will see that his qualifications stem from an institute called ‘Brain Bench’. Dr. Sam Vaknin admits this at the end of his ‘disclaimer’ when he states:
‘The author is certified in Psychological Counseling Techniques by Brainbench.’

He also allows us to see his ‘credentials’ on his webpage. If you scroll down to the fourth link titled ‘certified in psychological counseling techniques’ you will see that Dr. Sam Vaknin received his ‘certification’ from ‘Brain Bench’ (he doesn’t even provide photos or copies of his certificates (I will tell you why later), he just posts e-mail confirmation from Brain Bench saying he has passed their course). After reading this I asked myself, ‘what is Brain Bench?’. The answer to this question was supplied on Dr. Sam Vaknin’s webpage in the form of another link. Brain Bench is an online testing center that allows its participants to take online tests that predict employee success. Dr. Sam Vaknin uses words like ‘certified’ when he speaks about his involvement with Brain Bench. I contacted Brain Bench myself and found out that they don’t offer any programs that would constitute its participants as being ‘certified’ in a graduating program (You can visit their website at http:// http://www.brainbench.com). They are nothing more than a testing center.

The important question is ‘Is Dr. Sam Vaknin a truly qualified source for information dealing with narcissism or mental disorders?’ In my opinion he is NOT. This is not an opinion that is held by only myself. If you visit http://heliologue.com/2006/07/03/sam-vaknins-self-love/ you will see that Dr. Sam Vaknin is not only unqualified, he is a FRAUD as well. For those who don’t have the time to read what is on this page, let me pull some quotations from this page. We read the following:

‘He’s got an awful little website, you see, in which he hawks the book he wrote called Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited about a personality disorder called “Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)” Yes, you’re probably thinking the same thing: a man clearly in love with himself proffers his “expertise” on Narcissism. It’s just as awesome as it sounds. In fact, Vaknin was diagnosed with NPD in 1996, while serving a prison sentence in Israel.’

Ali Sina is obviously using dirty tactics to push his own book. He refers to this source as ‘Dr. Sam Vaknin Ph.D’ The title Ph.D here is misleading because Ali Sina does not mention what field Dr. Sam Vaknin specializes in to call himself a Ph.D. Ali Sina hopes that the reader of his book assumes that the Ph.D is directly related to Psychology or the study of mental disorders. Most people don’t research the sources given in a book, whether it be in the footnotes or bibliography, and Ali Sina depends on this lack of investigation to legitimize his references.

It just so happens that Dr. Sam Vaknin received his Ph.D in ‘Philosophy of Physics’, from the Pacific Western University, California, USA; a Ph.D. that has NOTHING to do with the study or diagnosis of mental disorders or psychology. What is even more shocking is that Pacific Western University is a ‘distance learning’ university that is NOT ACCREDITED. This means that it is not recognized by the government of the USA, or any ‘body’ of the government that deals with education in the USA as being a legitimate university.

I know that people, who read this and side with Ali Sina will try to defend his actions and his references. To those I pose the following scenario; would you go to a medical doctor for major surgery if you found out that that doctor received his diploma from a ‘distance-learning’ university that is NOT accredited? Worse yet, what if you found out that that doctors Ph.D or MA or even BA was in a field that has NOTHING to do with medicine? Would you be confident in having this doctor cut you open and perform major surgery? I think any sane person would seek a true medical doctor if this were the case.

Ali Sina will argue that it is not the person’s qualifications we should focus on, we should focus on what that person says or the argument they present. This is laughable at best because without qualification, one should not speak about a topic they say they are qualified to speak about. This reminds me of the series of Best Western hotel commercials that came out a while ago. In one commercial a man is about to jump off a building and kill himself. Another man comes to him and eventually talks the man down. The man then asks ‘Do have experience in this (suicide prevention), are you qualified?’ The man then says ‘No I am not, but I once stayed at a Best Western’.



Ali Sina

This long chunk of your so called rebuttal is nothing but red herring and ad hominem.

Dr. Vaknin is a foremost authority on the subject of narcissism. He has authored over 30 books. They are based on the latest research in the field and on scholarly works by the leading experts on personality disorders. Many of the chapters contain detailed bibliographies. That is the hallmark of a true scholarly book.

I am not a theologian and have received no formal training in religion. Nonetheless, I have debated many scholars of Islam and invariably have shown their errors. My book on Muhammad is irrefutable. That is because I base every assertion I make on the authentic Islamic sources and on the accredited scholarly works. The same can be said about Dr. Vaknin’s work.

Vaknin’s seminal book - Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited (now in its eighth, revised, impression) and the content of his Web site are based on correspondence since 1996 with hundreds of people suffering from Narcissistic Personality.

Dr. Vaknin’s online mailing lists alone sport well over 26,000 members - of which 1000 are therapists, social workers, psychiatrists and psychologists.

Everything he writes is backed by extensive bibliographies. You can download some of them here.

Dr. Vaknin has stated on several occasions that he has been diagnosed with the disorder and spent time in therapy and almost a decade discussing it in depth (mainly through correspondence) with mental health professionals the world over. It is his personal experience with this disorder that makes his work so thorough, so perceptive, and so enlightening. Unlike other psychologists, Vaknin’s understanding of narcissism does not come merely from books and second hand sources, but also from his own personal experience. With ruthless honestly, Vaknin lays bare the inner impulses of a narcissist like no other mental health professional can ever do. That is why so many of them gobble his books and have joined his long mailing list.

To say one who suffers from NPD is disqualified to write on this subject is preposterous. It’s like saying those who have suffered from eating disorder are disqualified to talk about it or alcoholic anonymous is a fraud because it relies on alcoholics helping each other. My best friend suffers from borderline personality disorder or extreme mood swings. She is a highly intelligent woman. No one can describe her disorder better than her. In fact the sites that she finds most helpful are those created and run by other BPD sufferers.

Out of 30 books Dr. Vaknin has written, 24 of them are available for download. (hardly a commercial practice). Is this man a fraud?

Vaknin has never claimed to be a mental health professional, any more than I claimed to be a theologian. Nonetheless he is regarded as an authority on this field by thousands of therapists, psychologists and psychiatrist just as I am considered to be among the few who understands Islam and Muhammad.

The fact that Dr. Vaknin is recognized as an authority on narcissism is witnessed by the media and many mental health professionals. Here is a short list of some of those testimonies. See also.

Sunday Times:

Channel 4 (UK) Documentary Egomania:

WebMD

New York Times

The Washington Post

USA Today

New York Press says ”Sam Vaknin is the world’s leading expert on narcissism.”

Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) says, “Vaknin’s a respected expert on malignant narcissists … He set about to know everything there is about the psychopathic narcissist.”

The Infinite Mind radio program

United Press International (UPI)

http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com/corporatenarcissism.html

Townhall.com Cal Thomas column,

Toronto Sun

CanWest News service and Newspapers Network

You can find the full texts of these articles here.

Santa Cruz Sentinel

Dr. Vaknin’s work is quoted in more than 100 scholarly works (search for “Sam Vaknin” on Amazon and on Google Scholar).

You can download some of the scholarly and media articles which cite Vaknin’s work here.

Everything you use to attack him, you have lifted out of his own Website. What kind of a scammer gives away so much information that can “be used against him”? Vaknin has been brutally honest about who he is. Hardly I know anyone so honest about himself. The fact that he is a narcissist is not his fault. Narcissism is the result of childhood abuse. Narcissists are victims. However, instead of scamming others, as most narcissists do, Vaknin is helping everyone to understand this disorder. That is the testimony to the fact that no matter your circumstances you can always do the right thing. Yes Vaknin is a narcissist, but he is a hero. Kudus to a man who can do so much good work despite his handicaps. He is an inspiration to millions of other NPD sufferers and everyone else. By brining the awareness of this disorder to the world, freely, Vaknin is contributing immensely to the betterment of the world.

You failed to find any fault in my arguments against Muhammad or Vaknin’s definition of NPD. All you could do was attack my source and try to character assassinate him. What a cheap shot! All your accusations against Dr. Vaknin are false. I had many other choices to quote from in describing NPD, but I chose Vaknin because he is quoted by most other contemporary sources and is regarded as an authority on the subject. There is hardly anyone alive that knows narcissism and can describe it better than Dr. Sam Vaknin.

Despite that, Vaknin is not saying anything that the researches in this field have not said. I can easily replace all Vaknin’s quotes in my book with quotes from other experts without changing an iota of my book. I chose Vaknin because of the clarity in his writings and his unique insight into this disorder. Vaknin says the same thing, only better.



Donald Morgan

Another reference Ali Sina uses comes to us in the form of a website http://www.muhammadanreality.com. Ali Sina uses this reference when trying to Quote ‘sayings’ of Muhammad. An example of this is the following, from his book:

‘I am from Allah, and the believers are from me’ (page 62)

‘The Prophet said: I heard your words, and everything you said is indeed true, and I myself am the Beloved of Allah (habibullah) and I say this without pride, and I carry the flag of glory (liwa ul-hamd) on the Day of Judgment, and am the first intercessor and the first whose intercession is accepted, and the first to stir the circles of Paradise so that Allah will open it for me and I shall enter it together with the poor among my Community, and I say this without pride. I am the most honored of the First and the Last, and I say this without pride’ (page 63)

I also checked this source to see if it can be considered qualified, since I was surprisingly disappointed with the references to Dr. Sam Vaknin. To my amazement I was once again shocked because this website is a SUFI website! I have nothing against the Sufi Muslims but I believe that if Ali Sina wants to legitimize his book, he should use sources that represent the majority, not the minority. The mainstream Sunni understanding of Islam is the dominate form of Islam in the world today. Thus, Ali Sina should have used this type of Sunni based sources when quoting anything from the lips of Muhammad. If Ali Sina is going to quote the minority, what’s to stop him from quoting other minority factions within Islam like The Nation of Islam or The 7 Per centers? Ali Sina doesn’t use quotations from these other sources because they are minority representations of Islam and their understanding of Islam is deviant from the original teachings of Islam. I am not going to get into the innovations of the Sufis here because that is whole other topic, but there are many articles written on this subject that you can read online and in books. But, for the sake of playing the devil’s advocate, let us say for a minute that there is nothing deviant or innovative about the practices of Sufis in Islam; this does not disqualify the fact that they are a minority view of Muhammad and Islam. Trying to say or infer that the Sufi is the dominate voice of Islam is taunt amount to saying that the KKK is the dominate voice for white America’s view on minorities and immigration (I’m not putting emphasis on the hateful views expressed by the KKK, I’m putting emphasis on the fact that what they say is a minority view held within the white community).

When I was debating with Amaar khan about pedophilia in Islam, I used references other than the Quran and Hadith. The readers on FFI’s website were quick to scorn me because I used what they called ‘secondary sources’ to prove my points. I hope that those same readers, along with everyone else who read Ali Sina’s book notice that this Sufi website is also a ‘secondary source’, since the footnotes provided do not allude to any reference from the Quran or Hadith; they come from http://www.muhammadanreality.com. If these sayings that Ali Sina says come from the lips of Muhammad and are authentic, he would have quoted Hadith, not this Sufi website. Ali Sina is well aware of the importance the Quran and authentic Hadith are to Muslims but he uses none. Instead he chooses to use a Sufi website!?

Again, like his reference to Dr. Sam Vaknin, Ali Sina is hoping and depending on the readers of his book to do little or no investigation into the sources he uses.



Ali Sina

Your argument about the invalidity of this quote because the source is a Sufi site is the same logical fallacy that you used to pooh-pooh Dr. Vaknin’s work. What is your point? Are you saying that Muhammad did not make those pompous remarks about himself and they are all libels made up by the heretic Sufis? Do they portray your prophet as a narcissist, which you don’t think is fair because the source is unreliable?

Sorry to burst your bubble. The following is a short list of Sunni sites that publish the same quote.

http://www.sunnah.org/ibadaat/tawassul.htm

http://www.allahoo.org/LoveProphet/LoveProphet.htm

and here and here.

This hadith was narrated by Ibn Abbas and was collected by Tirmidhī (824-892) who was a Sunni collector of hadith. Therefore, your scoffing at it on the ground that I pulled it from a Sufi site is garbage. Sufis also quote the Quran. Does that invalidate the Quran?

Is this the level of intellectualism by which you want to beat me? Poor start!



You approached me on Facebook and said you want to refute me. I no longer debate with incognito Muslims. The reason is simple. When I beat them there is no glory for me. Other Muslims say, ah but you did not debate a scholar. So I ask those who want to debate me to read my book first. This is not a free book, but I send it to them for free because I know they are not going to buy it. Of hundreds of people who received my book not a single one of them wrote back insisting on debate. Most of them never wrote back. Many of them wrote to thank me for opening their eyes and a few also wrote to curse me and tell me what a waste of time it would be for them to debate me. You are the only person who remained defiant after receiving my book.

As I explained this to you before there are three possibilities.

1- You are smarter than all Muslim scholars and can do what they can’t. This is highly improbable, and with what we saw so far, you clearly are not a scholar.

2- You are too dumb and deluded and as such incapable to discern facts. I said this is also unlikely because it appeared to me that you are a coherent person.

3- You did not read the book and your confidence in defeating me stems from your misplaced faith in Islam and your ignorance of what the book says. This was my original assessment of you and therefore I insisted that you should read the book.

Now you say you read it. I know option 1 is false. You tell me that option 3 is also false. What am I left with?

You are not a scholar Donald. You are engaging in all sorts of logical fallacies and you are wasting my time. There is no glory for me in defeating someone of your caliber. The only thing you can do is once again show that Muslims are incapable of rational thought. But we have plenty of that evidence and hardly yours makes a difference.

For the sake of brevity I will stop here and will respond to the rest of your “rebuttal” in the coming days. Then I will stop debating with you. There is a bigger fish in the pound. Prof. Pallacken abdul Wahid is a scholar. He has a website dedicated to prove the Quran has predicted all the sciences that were later discovered. He wants to debate me and I am much interested in that. He is somebody. Who are you? I can disprove this gentleman and brag about it. I cannot brag about anything by disproving you.

So I will respond to the rest of your “rebuttal” in the coming days and then tell you good bye. However, I give you one chance. You can bring along a scholar of fame. He does not have to write directly to me. All you have to do is mention his name and certify that he is reading and approving what you write as if taking ownership of what you say. Only then I will debate with you. I am telling you this in advance so you can start searching. Try to find someone of fame willing to lend his name to yours. You’ll have a hard time to do that. These scholars are deluded but not stupid. They know they will not win. Unlike you, they will read some of my debates with other scholars and will not risk their reputation. However, that is your only chance. If you bring along a reputed scholar of Islam to the table, I am all yours. Otherwise, I will respond to the rest of your arguments in the coming days and bade you farewell.


-----------------------------------------

http://www.muhammadanreality.com/creationofmuhammadanreality.htm

link to debate:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/2009/03/29/debate-with-the-convert-donald-morgan/


Click to view image: 'Donald Morgan'

Added: Mar-31-2009 
By: THE_HAMMER_OF_POITIERS
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Tags: DEBATE
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